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July 24, 2008 |
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Rob Urbinati
October 3, 2005
By Corey Bonnett
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To many, Canadian thrashers SACRIFICE never achieved the level of success they deserved. A strong underground following in the tape-trading scene of the early-mid 80s led to the eventual release of the cult-classic "Torment In Fire". The band would follow up with 1997's "Forward To Termination", probably their best-known release, 1990's "Soldiers of Misfortune", and eventually 1993's "Apocalypse Inside", which was released in a time when many metal fans had all but gone away. I recently spoke with Rob Urbinati to discuss a bit of the history behind this Canadian thrash band, where he's been and what he's been doing, and whether or not we should continue holding our breath for a SACRIFICE reunion.
The Toronto music scene was very strong with the likes of SACRIFICE, ANVIL, RAZOR, EXCITER and many more calling the area "home". What do you recall most about the Toronto scene of the mid-to-late 80s?
I guess it just seemed like there was a common kind of music that we were playing that was new. Us, and SLAUGHTER, and RAZOR, we all had a different sound, but, the type of music we were playing, I guess, was...it's hard to describe because now I don't feel there's that same kind of identity with bands as there was back then. We were playing the same kind of music but it wasn't just "This kind of band is coming out now, everybody jump on the bandwagon and play like them" – it wasn't really like that. It was just good, you know bands like EXCITER and ANVIL, we were just coming up and taking the torch from them and just going with it.
Do you directly blame the early 90s grunge movement for the demise of that scene?
No, not at all. I don't think that had anything to do with thrash. I think that it maybe killed the glam scene but as far as thrash goes, I think death metal just kind of came up and took over because thrash was just becoming…well, money was becoming a driving force in some of the band's writing styles and that's not how it started. I was just telling someone the other day, that back in those days, you could never imagine that in 2005, SLAYER and METALLICA would be as big as they are. You just never ever thought you would make money off the stuff, you just do it because you like the music. It just came to a point where bands started making money and that just became too much of a factor in thrash bands' music. Death metal was coming up, it's from the underground, a new heavy sound and it just came up and took over so, I mean that's what happens. Money starts to take hold in underground music...unfortunately.
In the early days, before Gus had even joined the band, SACRIFICE was going through drummers like crazy. Did you make the connection when the movie "This is Spinal Tap" was released?
No, not really because at the time we hadn't really done anything yet. Our first drummer, we played one show with him. Then, we had another drummer, we know he was filling in. He just said "Look, I'm not the right guy for the band", that was Ernie Flack. We just said "We have a couple of shows would you be into doing them?" and he said "Yeah" so we did a couple of shows. We were still looking for a drummer at the time. The first time we jammed with Gus, we just knew it was perfect. Back then it was really hard to find a drummer that could play fast stuff.
A bit of trivia from your past is that you helped design the logo or cover art for SLAUGHTER's "Strappado" album.
Just the logo.
How did that come about?
I don't even remember to tell you the truth. I think they were just looking for a logo and I just kind of sketched something up quick and they just took it as their logo. Ron the drummer, Ron Sumners, had ideas for covers and he had a lot of stuff in his head and it was usually Ron that would translate that onto paper.
Speaking of SLAUGHTER, I read in an interview with them that they used to do SACRIFICE cover songs. That must've been a bit of an honor, considering both of you were still such young bands.
Well, I don't know if they were doing cover songs, maybe in rehearsals and stuff like that. We'd both do each other's songs in rehearsal, you know we were really good friends back then. We both kind of broke out at the same time. SACRIFICE would go to practice and do "Incinerator" or whatever and they'd go to practice and play 'Sacrifice' or something. It was just, we were friends, hung out a lot, watched each other practice a lot and that kind of stuff.
Do you recall doing any other covers back when you had your first album out, or even before that?
Oh, all kinds. We never really ever played a cover song live, I think, other than a DISCHARGE song that we actually recorded. We just demoed it once, called 'Possibility of Life's Destruction'. I think we might have played that live a couple of times. But at rehearsal, I think pretty much any band will just...the guitar player starts playing a riff, drummer follows along and you know.
So, I guess we won't see any of these songs on any of these upcoming re-releases?
No, like I said we hadn't really recorded any covers as far as demoing them or anything, or even just a rehearsal tape of us doing covers. The only cover I know that's in existence - I didn't even know this existed - I was on a BLACK SABBATH site and they had every band that had ever done a cover of Black Sabbath and I was just looking through this when I saw SACRIFICE on there. I remember this one show when we just did about the first minute of 'Heaven and Hell' - we opened with it live. That was the only time I think we ever really did a cover live.
And you made their list.
Yeah, I couldn't believe it. Like, how did they know about this? (laughs)
I was reading a story way back that during the Michigan Metalfest, MORBID ANGEL pulled the plug on your power mid-show? What exactly was their problem?
Well, we were going down to the festival as the headliner and we got down there and MORBID ANGEL was like "No, we're the headliner, we're the headliner". We were just the kind of band that said "Whatever, that's cool". We didn't really speak to them about it, the promoter was telling us this and we're like "Fine, we don't have a problem with that. We'll go on second last, whatever." But, we wanted to play our whole set so we ended the set with the song 'Truth' off of 'Soldiers of Misfortune' which is like 10 minutes long. A bit into the song, the power went out and we could still hear our amps on stage and we finished the song anyway. Nothing bad happened, it was just...
Attitude I guess?
Yeah. When SACRIFICE started, we were used to playing with punk bands - not just young punk bands but bands that have been around, been on tour, with pretty big selling albums like C.O.C. and D.R.I. and stuff. They were always really cool with us and that whole ethic of that scene, you know, that whole "rock star" thing was just not there for any of the bands. And we took that too - every once in a while we'd play with a band that just had that attitude and we would just laugh it off and not make a big thing about it.
So, there was other bands that you ran into that had those attitudes out on the road?
Yeah, there's a few, but there's always bands like that. We never went out with the attitude "We're better than you" if we had a band opening for us. "You can't have a sound check" or "You can't do this and you can't do that" and "You can't sell your t-shirts for this price", you know we just went out and did our thing. We played with MEGADETH, I think it was on the Peace Sells tour, and their attitude wasn't really real "rock star" but they were just dicks. They were all junkies at the time...and they were just kind of silly. (laughs) There's been a few bands over the years but nothing ever really came of anything, we just laughed it off like I said.
Who would you say you had the most fun touring with back in those years?
The first time we actually ever played in the States was with C.O.C. and STRAWDOG that was really good. They were a lot older than us, I mean we were probably eighteen years old coming down and playing in the States for the first time. They were kind of showing us the ropes a little bit, well I don't know showing us the ropes but they treated us really good and we hadn't really expected that.
On the "Soldiers Of Misfortune" tour, SACRIFICE came through Thunder Bay with RAZOR and played at Crocks 'N Rolls. I recall you absolutely blew away the capacity crowd in a very small club. Was there a place you wouldn't play back then, or was just getting out, playing, and having your music heard the main objective?
Yeah, I think it was just getting out and playing. There's places that we played that I wouldn't want to play ever again. The size of the venue, or that kind of thing, never really mattered. I remember once we played in Kansas in the middle of, some kind of stable or something. I remember playing there with BOLT THROWER and BELIEVER and that was just ridiculous. It stunk like shit...it was just terrible. That is one place I'd never want to play again. Honestly, I can't really think of anywhere else.
Back when drummer Gus left the band, I remember being a little upset, or maybe more worried and I think it was because back then there was very little "band-jumping" that is so commonplace today. Back then, good bands stayed together. What exactly happened and was it an amicable split?
No, it wasn't amicable. It was really hard for everybody involved. That tour you spoke of when we were with RAZOR across Canada. Canada is a really hard country to tour. If you tour the United States, you have roughly a three hour drive between each show, sometimes a bit longer, and in Canada you have at least eight hours between each show and usually it's more so it's extremely difficult to tour here but it's rewarding as well. Gus had some issues. We weren't making that much money and he had responsibilities at home that the rest of us really didn't have and that played a part of it. He had become disillusioned with the whole thing and it was really hard on the rest of us to be on tour together. It was really sad because we were like four brothers growing up in this band and we just had to do it. It was rough at the time when it happened and it took us about ten years to get back.
I think when something like that happens you remember all the bad stuff and you don't remember any of the good stuff, you just have the animosity. We've all patched things up and things are all good. We talk about the old days and we just never even go there anymore.
He's actually playing in some band out in Vancouver now isn't he?
No, he's here in Toronto. He's in Brampton playing in a band called THE 3TARDS. His band is really good and he's back into playing...he hadn't played drums for a long time and he's right back into it now. I've seen them live a couple times and it's like he's never stopped playing. It's good to see because he's awesome.
SACRIFICE's last album, 1993's "Apocalypse Inside" was produced with RAZORS's Dave Carlo. Do you still keep in touch with Dave?
Not a whole lot. I see him around once in a while when RAZOR would play here and I'll go down and see him. They're good friends of ours and we've been through a lot together with those guys. We've been on the scene since like '85 so we know each other pretty good. Dave lives off in Guelph still so it's not like we see each other around a lot but it's good to get together with those guys definitely.
He's been promising a new release since Decibels came out about eight years ago...next time you talk to him, can you please inform him that we're still waiting!
(laughs) Oh, I'm sure he's got plenty of songs. That guy has no shortage of riffs. He could plug a guitar in and bang out like ten riffs in ten minutes. He's awesome, so I'm sure he's got no shortage of material, it's just getting him to do it.
Maybe he's waiting for Bob. Bob had that BOBNOXIOUS project going…
I didn't get to hear that, what was it like?
Umm, different, that's all I can say (laughs). Speaking of Dave Carlo...Toronto is hosting the GATES OF HELL gig with NUCLEAR ASSAULT, RAZOR, ANVIL, EXCITER, DREAMS OF DAMNATION and a handful of others…are you planning on going to that show?
I could possibly be going yes, not really sure yet.
When you see a bill like that, is there any desire for SACRIFICE to be part of something like this in the future if you were approached?
Oh, sure. We've talked about playing, or even recording, but logistically it's very difficult because Gus and I live at totally opposite ends of Toronto, for one, and we're the only two that live here. Joe lives in Detroit and Scott's in Vancouver so to get something like this together is very difficult. I always tell people I'm never going to say it will never happen and it's possible that it might, but it's very hard to get it together. We've actually tried and we've run over different scenarios how this could happen and how that could happen but when it gets down to it, we all have families, we all have other things on the go and it's not like when we were twenty years old with nothing else to do. We're on vacation here, this guy's on vacation then, we have jobs, and blah blah blah...just roadblocks all over the place, but hopefully someday it'll get done.
Well, I know there's a lot of people that are hoping for that.
Well, we're there too. We're hoping to do it too. We talk about it all the time so hopefully we can get over these hurdles and get it done sometime.
There are some other Canadian acts we haven't mentioned yet from back in the day including VOIVOD, INFERNAL MAJESTY, and ANNIHILATOR, who are again or still releasing albums to this day. Do you ever wonder "what if"?
Not really to be honest. I would like to record, that would be great. I'd love to do another SACRIFICE album but as far as pursuing it, going out and doing tours and making a full time thing out of it, is just not something that interests me or I don't really think anybody else in the band anymore. I mean, I love metal and I love the stuff SACRIFICE did to this day. That's one of those things I was talking about where money gets involved and it just wrecks everything. (laughs) I have songs here that could probably be SACRIFICE songs but like I said if it ever gets done, who knows.
One thing that didn't changed right up to and including your INTERZONE album was your recognizable scream…how is that holding out these days?
Umm, it's a little weathered but...it's funny, people tell me that I probably sing better now than ever. It's a little bit more difficult to do because I don't do it that often anymore. I'm in a band now and just play guitar, and when I step up to the mic, you know it takes a lot out of you, but I can still get up there and spit hot fire!
You mention you're in a band now. What kind of music is the band playing and what are they called?
I'm in a band right now called WAR AMP and it's kind of a CELTIC FROST meets BLACK SABBATH kind of sound. It has elements of both bands in it. It's more blues-based, it's not thrashy, it's a lot different from anything I've ever played. The musicians I'm playing with are all from that scene. There's a band called JAR from Toronto that have put out some stuff. They are a really good band and there's a couple of those guys in the band. It sounds really good, I'm really happy with it. It's kind of fun just to play guitar too.
Any plans to record?
We've actually started recording a demo. Once the demo's done we'll probably get it out a little bit and see what happens. We haven't actually played live yet but I think we might do that next month.
Unfortunately, the INTERZONE CD wasn't widely available and many metalheads may not even know of it's existence. Was there much touring in support of "Cydonia"?
No, there was no touring at all. I think we might have played a total of maybe five shows in Toronto. That whole thing came about after SACRIFICE broke up, I just kept writing songs and made a demo. I played pretty much everything on it with a drum machine and just gave it out to a couple friends. A little bit later, the band just formed all of a sudden with some people I knew. We got together, put the songs together, eventually recorded and did that CD. Yeah, it was very limited, I think there's 2000 copies so it's pretty hard to find.
It's a great CD though.
Oh, thanks.
Overall, that album was only subtly different from the last SACRIFICE release, a little bit slower, but with all your trademark shrieks and fancy fretwork. Had you ever considered calling it a SACRIFICE record, or was that out of the question without Joe Rico involved?
No, I couldn't do that if it was just me. I don't want to be one of those guys who carries the band name on and I'm the only guy left you know what I mean. I didn't rally want the whole hype of a new SACRIFICE album either because it wasn't...it is different from SACRIFICE honestly. SACRIFICE fans either love it or hate it. They never really say "Well, it's OK"...they either love it or hate it. (laughs) It's not that different from SACRIFICE really...that's my thought. It's maybe a bit simpler, especially in the songs where there's not as many quick time changes, the songs are pretty short and that kind of thing. But it was fun to do. We actually had a couple more songs we were going to end up doing something but the band just kind of fizzled out.
The album closer on "Cydonia", "Army of Me" was actually a BJORK cover tune. I hope I'm not out of line here, but what in the world made you guys consider doing a BJORK cover?
It's funny, I was watching TV one day and that video came on. I'm a BJORK fan, especially the "Post" album and that came on. I thought about it before but this one day it came on TV I thought "We could cover this!" The bass line in the song just sounds like a metal riff to me. We did it, and we changed it around quite a bit. If you didn't know it was a BJORK song, it doesn't really sound out of place on the album I don't think. The funny thing was, I got a call one day from someone from BJORK's label and he was asking me if we would be interested in putting it on a charity record that she's putting together of covers of her stuff. It's all going to be "Army Of Me" and I said "Sure, absolutely. " I asked him "Has she heard it? " and he said "Oh yes" so I said "Does she like it? " and he said "Oh, she loves it. It's her favorite one. It's the main reason why she wanted to get this thing together is she really likes it."
Apparently she really likes metal...metal that you wouldn't think she'd like. (laughs) She likes pretty heavy stuff though...I can't remember some of the band names people were spouting out at me but I just remember someone saying MASTODON and other bands like grind bands that she likes and I just couldn't believe it. She came from her girl band, THE SUGARCUBES, they were a kind of an underground indie and I find a lot of people that do that stuff are more in tune with a lot of different underground music and I guess she's in tune with metal. I thought that was cool.
Personally, I've said it time and time again - SACRIFICE never achieved the level of recognition and success they rightfully deserved. You guys recorded your first album when you were still rather young. In your thoughts, what could you have done differently back in the late 80s to get SACRIFICE up near the level of the Big 4?
I never think about that. People ask me "What could you have done differently?" and I just say "I don't know". If anything, if we were a little bit older before our first album came out...I mean if we were a little bit older by then, we probably wouldn't have gone anywhere. If we would've waited a couple more years, probably would've never taken off at all. But, we had fun with it and made some music that we liked. We just had that in our systems and we had to get it out. We know we really never got as big as some other bands, but we got a lot bigger than a lot of other bands too so we were fortunate with that and especially at that age. We recorded out first album at like eighteen years old, and that's unheard of now pretty much. We were kind of fortunate too.
I recall a few years back a "bootleg" copy of "Torment In Fire" started showing up. Did eventually hooking up with Marquee Records for the proper re-release of "Torment In Fire" have anything to do with that?
Maybe in some small way - I think what happened with us happens with a lot of bands. You just hold on and hold on and hold on and after a while you forget why you're holding on. With Armando from Marquee, we had talked for a long time about doing a live album and he suggested maybe putting out the first three, and I though maybe, well you know. We were in contact for about a year before finally saying "OK, let's do it. " The guy had great ideas. I was a little concerned whether he could pull it off. I don't know if you've seen it or not but when I first got the "Torment In Fire" re-release, it was better than I could have ever hoped he'd do. I can't think of any other label that could do that good of a job. It came out even better than my best expectations so I'm really happy with what he's done and I'm just glad everybody else is. Old SACRIFICE fans are telling me "It's fucking awesome!" and "This is exactly what the re-release should be."
Even myself, as a fan - I'm sure you're the same way - if there's some album that you grew up listening to and you loved it and can't wait for the re-release and you get it and there's a two page book inside and it sounds shitty, it's very disappointing, and we didn't want that to happen.
Well, hats off to him. It turned out amazing.
Yeah, he did do an awesome job. I just hope bands look to him to re-release stuff more because he's a great guy.
So, was somebody actually making money off of the bootleg version that came out a while back?
Oh, I'm sure. There's a lot of bootlegs going around of SACRIFICE stuff. I'm sure someone's making money somewhere, but you can't stop bootlegging. I think when any band sees their first bootleg, you're a little pissed off but after a while you just, you can't stop this – it's a fact of life. (laughs)
Did it not come out with one of your early demos on it as well?
There was one that came out called "Put Her On The Altar". That one had pretty much all of our demo stuff on it, I think. I actually own that one. One of my friends from STRAPPING YOUNG LAD got me one from the States. (laughs)
Were you able to figure out who might be responsible for this, or is that something you can't be bothered with?
It's not really something that bothers me, especially the 'Put Her On The Altar' one. The cover wasn't even cardstock, it was just paper the guy did on his computer. It's almost flattering in some ways that someone would go out of their way to do that but on the other hand you're not seeing a cent from it and it's your stuff. Like I said, you can't stop it and it's something that's going to happen. Armando from Marquee - we talked about that too - and he just said, "The only way you can stop bootlegging is just to put something out that's so much better than any bootleg could ever be. That's the only way to stop it. " and he's pretty much done that.
Earlier today, I listened to the new "Torment In Fire" and to be truthful, it's been a long time since I've heard that one. After getting re-acquainted with it today, it brought me back to a time when the rawness and aggression just jumped up out of the LP grooves the minute you put it on. The guitar sound in songs like "Possession" and "Sacrifice", for example, are tones that just aren't heard today. Are you excited about this re-release through Marquee Records and the exposure it will bring the band?
Well, I think the main reason for us doing this is for the fans, like the old SACRIFICE fans. A lot of old SACRIFICE fans don't even have this stuff on CD, it's very limited the original pressings of the stuff. It's great if there's a sixteen-year-old kid that gets into SACRIFICE all of a sudden from that, hey that's great too. I'm really happy with the way everything has come out. Exposure for the band really doesn't mean much anymore because we aren't really together anymore. As long as people are happy with the product, that's what we wanted, that was our goal.
Do you have any idea on the release schedule for the other albums?
"Forward To Termination" should probably be out by, I'm guessing in October. I'm hoping "Soldiers Of Misfortune" will be out around January and then there's going to be a live album with a DVD probably in the spring. There’s no definite date on anything yet, that's just a rough idea. Actually "Forward To Termination" might be out earlier than that but I'm not really sure yet.
In addition to your unique voice, SACRIFICE definitely has a sound that is pretty much exclusive to them. However, there has been some material released in the last few years that I recall saying at the time "Wow, that sounds a little like SACRIFICE." Have you ever noticed the band's influence in today's metal scene?
Once in a while...today, not so much. There are some things I hear where I'm like "Wow, that sounds like this." I definitely hear it. I think it was more I think in the 90s. I don't know if you remember the ENTOMBED Hollowman EP, but someone called me up and said "You've got to hear this" and I said "What is it?" He said, "It's the new ENTOMBED EP. Listen to this." and he pressed play. About halfway through the song they went into the song 'Sacrifice' pretty much note-for-note with the scream and everything and I was like “Wow!" I couldn't believe it. You hear things like that sometimes. So, if some point in the future I rip off an ENTOMBED riff, it'll even itself out. (laughs)
What, if any, bands are you a fan of these days?
These days, what have I got recently...I just got the new ARCH ENEMY. I'm a fan. I like the shredding stuff. Those guys are like my favorite guitar players pretty much so anything with those guys playing guitar, like SPIRITUAL BEGGARS, I love that too. What else have I got...I can never think of anything. I'm trying to think of some fresh new bands and I can't even think of anybody right now. Honestly, at this point, it's very few and far between that a band will come out and I'll be "Wow, that's amazing." It usually takes by the band's second or third album before I'm like "OK, this is really good now." I listen to all kinds of stuff now and it just seems, maybe when a band comes out, it just, I don't know how to put this into words... usually the stuff I like the most now is the stuff that reminds me of our scene. Not even so much musically, it just has that same spirit or whatever. I'll hang up the phone with you and I'll be "Oh, I should've told him about this!" (laughs)
It's disappointing to me too in Canada that, other than STRAPPING YOUNG LAD, they're west coast, but here in Toronto, there's no band that's really jumped up and taken off and got to that level that we were at once. That's disappointed me...you know there's good bands here, it's not like there's not good bands but, no one's rally taken that step and really taken off. It's like that across Canada I guess. I'm just waiting for some Canadian band. I love STRAPPING YOUNG LAD but I'm waiting for another new band to come out now and I don't know where it's going to come from but it's just been so long.
We touched on this earlier, but when is the last time you talked with Joe about a SACRIFICE reunion type thing?
Probably a couple of days ago! I talk to him quite a bit. We grew up together, so we're still in touch. He's in Detroit but we talk on the phone probably t least once a week. We don't just talk about the band, we talk about stupid shit but we always touch on that - "What if we could record this? " and "Let's record an album of covers." or "Let's do this." There's always just - eggs thrown out, fucking around.
Speaking of recording an album of covers, what did you think of that last SIX FEET UNDER release "Graveyard Classics 2" which was the entire AC/DC "Back In Black" album? Did you hear it?
I didn't hear the "Back In Black". I've heard some SIX FEET UNDER covers before. I'm not a big fan of the band. Chris Barnes voice now is just...when he was in CANNIBAL CORPSE...CANNIBAL CORPSE is not a band I can listen to all the time but his vocals had an identity and now, his voice, he's just doing something else with it and I just don't really like it.
Well you had just mentioned a covers album so I was wondering if you had heard that one yet?
No, I hadn't heard that yet. I heard them do THIN LIZZY "Jailbreak" and there's a couple more. It's always fun for me to hear a band like that to do an old rock classic. It's always interesting.
Would you mind ranking the SACRIFICE releases and maybe give a little explanation of why that particular order exists?
It's really hard for me to do. One and two, they can flip-flop either day is "Forward To Termination" and "Apocalypse Inside". "Forward" just because I think that album really defined our sound. "Torment In Fire" came out and our influences were more in the front than that album, and I think we really defined ourselves on that one. It's a consistent album. Everybody seems to have a different favorite song on that album and that's really cool. Every song is pretty strong on it. 'Apocalypse Inside' I feel the kind of the same way about. There's a lot of good riffs on it but it came out at a bad time. Death metal and grindcore were really taking off at that time and thrash was just - no one wanted to hear it anymore. There's a lot of cool time changes and really good songwriting on it. There's some fast shit on there...it sounds like a SACRIFICE album to me and I think that's the best sound we had on that album. Yeah, I really like that one too.
After that, I would go with "Soldiers" because there's some really good songwriting on that album too. The problem I had with that one was that I wish the guitars were thicker. We'd go to band practice and it would just sound so heavy and when that was all said and done, the guitars were just too clean on the recording. I love the recording - the drums sounded great on it but I just wish the guitars were thicker on it. "Torment In Fire", I guess, would be fourth...just because it was so...we were just so new to this, it was just the first songs we had ever written. It's not like I don't like it but...we just took what we did there and went on from there.
On behalf of myself and the staff at METALEATER, I'd like to thank you for taking time to speak with me today and wish you the best of luck with these re-releases as well as anything you take on in the future.
Thank you very much, Corey! [FIN]
» Official SACRIFICE Website
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